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An article about Muslim immigrants in Europe particularly in Sweden.
The attempt to ignore the issue form the authorities and an attempt to understand the reason for the problems of integration of Muslim immigrants.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/21789

You don't like Muslims, we get it.

Heh,did you read the article?
I didn't post this cause i don't like Muslims.
I posted this cause i find the Western world's patronizing ideas,that given a bit of time everyone will definitely realize how superior western culture and way of life is,interesting.
I'm also interested in how different cultures collide and not necessarily the "western culture" and the Muslim one although This process is obviously closer and more relevant to me.

even if i don't agree with everything it seems true

muslims often live together with only few contacts with other communities, you don't integrate yourself if you live within a community composed by people from your origin country, you have to be surounded by locals

This idea is so funny:
"Here are 300000 euros, go back to your country and brag with your new mercedes, house and boat"

I mean what would they think of us? They dont even have to go to a game show to win that kind of money.
They would just learn: go in the country go out and get 300.000 euros.

Gota wrote:Heh,did you read the article?
I didn't post this cause i don't like Muslims.
I posted this cause i find the Western world's patronizing ideas,that given a bit of time everyone will definitely realize how superior western culture and way of life is,interesting.
I'm also interested in how different cultures collide and not necessarily the "western culture" and the Muslim one although This process is obviously closer and more relevant to me.

dude u live at the frontier of this collosion

muslims often live together with only few contacts with other communities, you don't integrate yourself if you live within a community composed by people from your origin country, you have to be surounded by locals

true, but also true for many other "groups" like chinese,...

the chinese at least open good takeaways

Machete234 wrote:This idea is so funny:
"Here are 300000 euros, go back to your country and brag with your new mercedes, house and boat"

I mean what would they think of us? They dont even have to go to a game show to win that kind of money.
They would just learn: go in the country go out and get 300.000 euros.

They're not going to give each of them 300000 euros. Deporting them will cost their government much less than that.

manolo_ wrote: true, but also true for many other "groups" like chinese,...

Other 'groups' don't go rioting in the streets and sending death threats over an imagined slight over their culture/religion.

There was a time people were saying the same things about immigrants who were Irish, Jewish, Ukrainian, Italian, Korean, etc. - in many of the cases these culturally specific ghettos occurred by design (ie. Paris), so such countries dealing with the problem really can't complain.

Either way, the constant fresh influx of immigration means the regional culture stays fresh. Surges of immigration like this are temporary though - again, look at the historical examples of Ireland et al. It will take a couple of generations to work itself out.

Do I like Muslim culture? No, frankly beyond shawarma and mathematics, I think it's pretty backwards. But every time I hear somebody discussing current events and saying "it's different this time"... no, it isn't. The same argument has happened a million times over every wave of immigration.

Pxtl wrote:There was a time people were saying the same things about immigrants who were Irish, Jewish, Ukrainian, Italian, Korean, etc. - in many of the cases these culturally specific ghettos occurred by design (ie. Paris), so such countries dealing with the problem really can't complain.

Either way, the constant fresh influx of immigration means the regional culture stays fresh. Surges of immigration like this are temporary though - again, look at the historical examples of Ireland et al. It will take a couple of generations to work itself out.

Do I like Muslim culture? No, frankly beyond shawarma and mathematics, I think it's pretty backwards. But every time I hear somebody discussing current events and saying "it's different this time"... no, it isn't. The same argument has happened a million times over every wave of immigration.

First post worth reading in this thread.

Pxtl wrote:There was a time people were saying the same things about immigrants who were Irish, Jewish, Ukrainian, Italian, Korean, etc. - in many of the cases these culturally specific ghettos occurred by design (ie. Paris), so such countries dealing with the problem really can't complain.

Either way, the constant fresh influx of immigration means the regional culture stays fresh. Surges of immigration like this are temporary though - again, look at the historical examples of Ireland et al. It will take a couple of generations to work itself out.

Do I like Muslim culture? No, frankly beyond shawarma and mathematics, I think it's pretty backwards. But every time I hear somebody discussing current events and saying "it's different this time"... no, it isn't. The same argument has happened a million times over every wave of immigration.

just false ... old waves of immigration were from similar country with similar culture (different of course but way less than with muslim one)

Satirik wrote:just false ... old waves of immigration was from similar country with similar culture (different of course but way less than with muslim one)

This assumption needs to be tested.

How does one unequivocally measure cultural differences?

zwzsg wrote:

Satirik wrote:just false ... old waves of immigration was from similar country with similar culture (different of course but way less than with muslim one)

This assumption needs to be tested.

How does one unequivocally measure cultural differences?

and i think the cutural difference with chinese is even bigger than with muslims but chinese are good workers never whining so noone cares about them

I didnt read the article but

I dont think all muslims can be clumped together, its big difference in culture between Turkey/Irak/Somalia/Indonesia

And of course its nicer to get for example Turkish immigrants who open kebab restaurants, compared to Somali refugees or such.

Pxtl wrote:There was a time people were saying the same things about immigrants who were Irish, Jewish, Ukrainian, Italian, Korean, etc. - in many of the cases these culturally specific ghettos occurred by design (ie. Paris), so such countries dealing with the problem really can't complain.

They are in the country for 3 generations and dont speak the language correctly.
We didnt build them getthos, they did.

Other groups of immigrants dont make that many problems.
(russian guys you will probably find them in the university not on the street)
That might be because they are less in number but I think the cultures are really incompatible.

For example in the article: I think its true that they will take kindness from you as some sort of weakness.
An example: muslim insults your mother, you say "pfff is that all you got? lame!"
muslim now thinks your a faggot for not kicking his ass.
Bad example I know.
In school they think the teachers are weak, because they just say "be quiet" instead of kicking their ass like a teacher (maybe) would do in a muslim country.

In the article that passage sums it up I think.

My own experience is that Muslims donÔÇÖt understand our Western way of trying to handle conflicts through dialogue. They are raised in a culture with very clear outer authorities and consequences. Western tradition using compromise and inner reflection as primary means of handling outer and inner conflicts is seen as weak in the Muslim culture.

If I should count intellectual muslims that I know I would only need 1 or 2 fingers of my hand.
The ones that were probably farmers in their country and think thats actually more knowledge than they need here, I couldnt count them.

Im not right wing but I see a lot of truth in that article.

IMO anyone entering a new society faces a massive amount of barriers, regardless of whether it is an "upgrade" or "downgrade" reflecting quality of life.

to me, it seems to be more about how many people emigrate / seek refuge in an area at the same time. if a single person comes here from elsewhere, its tough to fit in... not everyone will speak the same language as you, not everyone will have the same values as you. even my friend who recently emigrated from scotland has a hard enough time fitting in even due to cultural stereotypes (everyone assumes hes a heavy drinker and a tightwad) so i can only imagine what it's like being someone coming to a new country who can't even speak the language.

if you are on your own in a new society, in order to adapt and partake in a normal sort of life, you have to learn the culture, language and mannerisms, and will eventually be integrated into society as a whole (as a canadian i am taught to be proud of this, which i am indeed as a second generation immigrant)

then take on the other hand, a whole bunch of people coming from another culture at the same time, who then settle and live together. whats the point in learning a new language when you already have friends who speak the one that you spoke in your old country? why even bother learning about a new culture when you are surrounded by the old one that you're used to? a chinese person could move to my city, live in chinatown, get a job, make friends, without ever learning a word of english.

this causes the stuff that i hate, and the stuff that is discussed in gotas article... when a ton of people enter a country at once, they will just stick together as a cultural group and not become part of society in general, which is usually detractive and damaging to the country hosting them.

it works both ways, i can't imagine 10,000 canadians moving to the same spot somewhere in denmark and immediately becoming danish, they would all hang around together, watch hockey together (lol) and just generally do canadian stuff with canadian people, because its what they are used to.

beyond that, take 10,000 people from any country, and stick them into another country where they face massive prejudicial barriers, and see how long it takes society to integrate them... they will stick together, and if they feel they are treated unfairly, may eventually constitute a criminal element.

i have a lot of muslim friends who live in canada, but they are integrated... most of them drink, have premarital sex, and do the same sort of things that are expected of westernized young people the world over. and conversely, there are muslims here that apparently aren't even allowed to talk to me because i'm not jewish or christian.

TL: DR need to spread these dudes out when they come to your country, and you'll be fine.

IMHO Fix the problems in their countries of origin and you won't have any immigrants.

(dunno like invade it and occupy it and eventually make everything worse, oh no wait, USA already got that one)

KaiserJ wrote:as a canadian i am taught to be proud of this, which i am indeed as a second generation immigrant)

Youre a second generation immigrant your ancestors came from xyz country and you call yourself a canadian.
Now imagine the turks are living in my country for about 3 generations (came in the 50's) and they still keep their national identity and they think education is not important.
These people will never have good jobs and money and will always stay in their social mileu.

KaiserJ wrote:
if you are on your own in a new society, in order to adapt and partake in a normal sort of life, you have to learn the culture, language and mannerisms, and will eventually be integrated into society as a whole

Yes if youre on your own you will be forced to adapt but if you can stay with enough people from your country you will never do that.

I dont know if I go to a richer country I hope for new possibilities and I dont want to stay in little istanbul for all my life. (the only difference to real istanbul beeing that the weather is not as good)

I guess my take on this is: Muslims here in the U.S.A. aren't having the same experience, and are often well-integrated in the second generation, like most of our giant waves of immigration have been. Conclusion: the problem's in the host societies and their policies, not that Muslims are irredeemably backwards.

Its a general problem of modern times- because the world has shrunken. Earlier on immigrants had no choice but to fit in, there was no way back, and a ghetto comunity couldnt survive on its own, without people adaptin to the new homecountry-becoming sucessfull and tempting to other people.
But today, with planes, cars,westernunion and interttubes your homecountry is never more than a days travell away. So why fit in? There remains no real pressure, and the less open the structure of a society (vertical mobility) the moar this failure looks like people digging in in there social ghettos.
If they could, they would. In Germany for example some people of the Turkish Comunity became really big e.g. Mousse T or the Chief of CryTek. But it aint easy.
Mostly the new immigrants only find work &there own companys in new industryfields developing. And as europe sticks to its old fields, its pretty hard for them to fit in.