Basic Programming languages

[AF]

When I was a kid I had a VTech computer, the usual with the 100 touch buttons with vague activities on a pixellated screen. One of which was a BASIC environment.

As primitive as that machine was, that taught me a lot, and without it I'd probably be doing other things today.

Now I have my little sister who's 5, she has basic reading skills, and she knows how to do basic web browsing. Is there something similar other than logo I can introduce her to?

[knorke]

there is a online version of robo rally. can not find it atm but it is fun and stuff. "programming" robots to either turn, move, shot lazer by placing cards.

[SwiftSpear]

5 is a little young. But maby a dumbed down Java IDE like Judo?

There was one that some university guy was working on that was a bit more like a movie maker suit, but I can't find it at the moment.

[KaiserJ]

wee ones seem to immediately understand how flash movies work once they see drawings and a timeframe

edit blah blah AF doesnt like flash; well, why dont you just teach her how to do some really boring crap that nobody likes instead

or kidpix

[SwiftSpear]

wee ones seem to immediately understand how flash movies work once they see drawings and a timeframe

edit blah blah AF doesnt like flash; well, why dont you just teach her how to do some really boring crap that nobody likes instead

or kidpix

There's a fair bit of evidence in educational psychology that until a certain age a concept like "x=5" "4+x=9" wouldn't be understandable, and that basic abstraction is pretty fundamental to programming. The understanding that a symbol can represent something unrelated, that that symbol can actually BE that thing in some cases, is not innate to human understanding, it develops with time and practice.

I'd say you're safe trying to introduce that kind of stuff grade 3-4 maby, but I think it's beyond a 5 year old probably. That being said, I doubt it will do damage to try, just don't get frustrated it if the concept is still to alien for a person at that age. It would be kind of like getting mad at a 10 year old for not understanding calculus when you try to teach it to them, they're gonna feel insecure for it, but your expectation is unrealistic.

[KaiserJ]

tbh it doesnt even matter, i'll be welding knives to my children so even though yours is older it wont have a chance in a 1v1

FLASH!

edit: actually wheels too

double edit : i meant to introduce flash as something akin to a sequential animation (kids love to color) rather than anything to do with coding

[SwiftSpear]

I think, if you keep scripting out of it, Flash animation is something kids can probably learn at a very early age. It'll be crude, like crayon drawings, but I don't think it's outside of reach. The only abstract concept is that still pictures when rapidly cycled appear to cause movement, but I think it doesn't take too much practice to establish that. It can be shown pretty easily by a teacher.

[Pxtl]

Well, there's Squeak Smalltalk, which is meant to be a simple programming tool for kids.

There's Scratch, but I don't know much about that one.

http://scratch.mit.edu/

[SinbadEV]

wee ones seem to immediately understand how flash movies work once they see drawings and a timeframe

edit blah blah AF doesnt like flash; well, why dont you just teach her how to do some really boring crap that nobody likes instead

or kidpix

There's a fair bit of evidence in educational psychology that until a certain age a concept like "x=5" "4+x=9" wouldn't be understandable, and that basic abstraction is pretty fundamental to programming. The understanding that a symbol can represent something unrelated, that that symbol can actually BE that thing in some cases, is not innate to human understanding, it develops with time and practice.

I'd say you're safe trying to introduce that kind of stuff grade 3-4 maby, but I think it's beyond a 5 year old probably. That being said, I doubt it will do damage to try, just don't get frustrated it if the concept is still to alien for a person at that age. It would be kind of like getting mad at a 10 year old for not understanding calculus when you try to teach it to them, they're gonna feel insecure for it, but your expectation is unrealistic.

I'm pretty sure object abstraction is like a first three years concept... the concepts that a symbol can represent something is a fundamental aspect of learning to read (A makes the Ahh sound)... That said I agree with you on the point that the basic mathematical/logical concepts needed to learn programming are beyond the understanding of a 5 year old... something like "hyper-card" would be good...

Scratch (according to the website) is good for teaching 8-16 year olds... so I'd imagine a clever 5 year old with above average reading and comprehension skills (and a patient teacher) might do well with it... I started programming in Atari Basic when I was about 8 and scratch is supposed to be simpler and funnerer then Basic

[MidKnight]

Procedural code (code without OOP, just linear structure, and maybe some gotos) is really nice and easy to understand (albeit difficult to use for large, comrehensive things).
A clear syntax, easy readability, logical rules, and the capability to make the language do fun stuff should be enough to allow kids to learn it.

EDIT: Many thanks to lurker for the clarification! My vocabulary has been refined and improved!

[AF]

Oh they don't realize its abstract, thats the point, theyre associating A with B, not A with imaginary abstract container B.

You don't need to know variables to make programs, sure your limited by what you have but it is possible. I remember making a banking program on my VTech, and the support for variables was pretty poor if not near nonexistant. If statements, basic loops, and math statements where the bulk of what I had to play with.

As for flash, I disapprove of flash on websites as unnecessary and limiting. I could introduce her to flash but I asked about programming, not 2d animation =p

[hoijui]

well... is using a keyboard an option, or should it rather be something that can be done with only using the mouse?
i mean... i can imagine she is not quite fluent with a keyboard, and it is pretty boring/tiring to have to hit that thing a hundred times with one finger, just to get 3 lines of code, and then it will have problems and you have to look through all the code again (which was so boring to write in the first place) ...
i just feel it has to be graphical/mouse oriented, like the lego programming language. i never used it, but i remember you can drag lego bricks together, to stear the robots.

[AF]

well something that she could do with just a mouse she could easily do now, and she can duck type, but she doesn't have much reason to type with the kinds of things she does on a computer.

[SinbadEV]

well... is using a keyboard an option, or should it rather be something that can be done with only using the mouse?
i mean... i can imagine she is not quite fluent with a keyboard, and it is pretty boring/tiring to have to hit that thing a hundred times with one finger, just to get 3 lines of code, and then it will have problems and you have to look through all the code again (which was so boring to write in the first place) ...
i just feel it has to be graphical/mouse oriented, like the lego programming language. i never used it, but i remember you can drag lego bricks together, to stear the robots.

Scratch appears to be very similar to the Lego Programming Language (Minstorm) that I used like 6 years ago... so yeah... if your rich Lego Mindstorm (or Inventor or whatever it's called now) is probably the way to go.

[knorke]

The only abstract concept is that still pictures when rapidly cycled appear to cause movement

arent there a million ways to teach concepts like that without a computer:
http://www.hecht-sprung.de/HELLO_files/Daumenkino.gif
(large gif is large)

Marble runs, how do they work.

Its like programming, see the loops and switches!


Also this stuff.

i mean computers are all fun but at the age of 5? srsly. That is why you get all those children who can not walk backwards without falling over.

[hoijui]

computer is cheaper then that stuff

[rattle]

buy her a pet spider instead

[knorke]

computer is cheaper then that stuff

sadly yes.
glad i still had tons and tons of bricks and miles of that wood train thing, though it was all used and had none of that useless deco stuff.

[Panda]

The wooden train set sounds good to me. At the age of 5 kids are still working on things like learning to write their names, ABC's, numbers and colors. You'd be doing well if you could get them to sit quietly for story time. I really think that programming, even it was designed for kids, may be a little bit much for her at this time.

Another suggestion is to buy her all kinds of ribbons. They could be hair ribbons or gymnastics ribbons, but, if your sister happens to be a more feminine girl, and this could happen even if you aren't trying to encourage her to be especially feminine, she may really like them. I have a little niece who just happened to like that sort of thing and really likes to play with ribbons during Christmas.





A lot of girls (young and older) like to hang out with their friends and fix each others hair, so it's ok, as long as she isn't doing anything like this:

[AF]

heh I would have but I think she'd get mightily frustrated by ribbons at the moment for finding them so attractive yet being unable to wield them.

( and wrong sister rattle, I have several, besides my stepdad is terrified of spiders in particular, which can be funnyat times, seeing a guy prod a small brown nodule and a giant spider flips out on a 42" screen while my stepdad squirms and curls into a ball is hilarious )