Ok, now you're just pissing me off, Gota.
Stop trying to guilt or bully others into doing stuff for you.
Smoth, I apologize for not showing any advances in the mexing if your recent maps, Ive been too swamped with work related shit these past few weeks.
One of the reasons why I make less maps than usual, is it has become quite an effort - even with recent and extremely streamlined tools - to make original and beautiful maps.
Where did all the mappers go?
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Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Maybe try getting of my case..People here make BAW threads twice a day.Beherith wrote:Ok, now you're just pissing me off, Gota.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
So that justifies it for you?
You do nothing but shit on others work, while hardly providing any yourself. All you do is demand, and your thinly veiled elitism does not help in constructing a positive or encouraging self image.
You do nothing but shit on others work, while hardly providing any yourself. All you do is demand, and your thinly veiled elitism does not help in constructing a positive or encouraging self image.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
What work did i shit on?It's not a thinly veiled elitism its just a tad of silliness that's all.I mostly post in these forums for fun.Beherith wrote:So that justifies it for you?
You do nothing but shit on others work, while hardly providing any yourself. All you do is demand, and your thinly veiled elitism does not help in constructing a positive or encouraging self image.
And yes most maps out there ARE bad.is it a secret?I dont judge people who upload their first beta map without even a texture....but facts are facts.
Last edited by Gota on 09 Oct 2010, 03:05, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
I think S44 somehow pissed of Arturri. Nixa is back making some maps, mainly for S44.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
most maps look and play the same because most mods look and play the same so its just some heightmap with metalspots evenly spread over it so the map can be played left box vs right box.Gota wrote:Most maps are either visually ugly,have a bad metal map and metal amounts or have shit/boring heightmaps....
There is the problem if the game is > 3v3, layout does not matter anymore. because you will just fight the guy facing you. in some small area. for example if you are "the water guy" it does not matter if there are nice sneaky paths across the mountains. because that is where the "mountain guy" will be playing. so there is no real way to outmanoever the enemy, it is just dully lane bashing vs each other. Of course nobody wants to be "the guy that failed and let the enemy past" so that encourages players to play more carefully and make turrets even though there is not even a enemy in sight because you know it is the only direction the enemy will attack from. battles only happen in one dimension.
A way to break this up would be to play a map like BigGameHunters or this 8way DeltasiegeIsland played with random startpositions. But its always boxxy, springs queen.
bawww baww bawww.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
knorke wrote:most maps look and play the same because most mods look and play the same so its just some heightmap with metalspots evenly spread over it so the map can be played left box vs right box.Gota wrote:Most maps are either visually ugly,have a bad metal map and metal amounts or have shit/boring heightmaps....
There is the problem if the game is > 3v3, layout does not matter anymore. because you will just fight the guy facing you. in some small area. for example if you are "the water guy" it does not matter if there are nice sneaky paths across the mountains. because that is where the "mountain guy" will be playing. so there is no real way to outmanoever the enemy, it is just dully lane bashing vs each other. Of course nobody wants to be "the guy that failed and let the enemy past" so that encourages players to play more carefully and make turrets even though there is not even a enemy in sight because you know it is the only direction the enemy will attack from. battles only happen in one dimension.
A way to break this up would be to play a map like BigGameHunters or this 8way DeltasiegeIsland played with random startpositions. But its always boxxy, springs queen.
bawww baww bawww.
no no no...im talking about the maps that are straight out unplayable....
The ugly ones without any redeeming gimmicks...think greenfields but without the no metal gimmick(there are of course the ones with completley broken heightmaps as well).
There are good maps but most of the maps that get a lot of play are far away from visual perfection while newer visually pretty ones,apparently don't have a satisfying heightmap to draw in a crowed.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
i am proving my point with the power of science! 
see how all the battles are always in the middle? it looks like this for 90% of games and maps.
attack and counter attack happen in the same place.
the ramps and hills to the left and right edges might as well not exist!
starcraft:
enemy attacks: you fight near your base to defend.
counterattack: you fight near his base and try to destroy it.
spring:
streams of units bash into each other in the middle. endlessly. like during a wall of death.
only a small portion of most maps is really relevant for gameplay, units just drive across the rest of the map is just to get to this small "stripe" in the middle.
if the fighting leaves that area, the battle is already over.
but i think thats more a result of the way ta plays than map layout.
@Gota
yes, sorry i quoted you and wanted to write something but then did not and left in the quote.
see how all the battles are always in the middle? it looks like this for 90% of games and maps.
attack and counter attack happen in the same place.
the ramps and hills to the left and right edges might as well not exist!
starcraft:
enemy attacks: you fight near your base to defend.
counterattack: you fight near his base and try to destroy it.
spring:
streams of units bash into each other in the middle. endlessly. like during a wall of death.
only a small portion of most maps is really relevant for gameplay, units just drive across the rest of the map is just to get to this small "stripe" in the middle.
if the fighting leaves that area, the battle is already over.
but i think thats more a result of the way ta plays than map layout.
@Gota
yes, sorry i quoted you and wanted to write something but then did not and left in the quote.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
plz remind me, its ba and red dots are hlts ? 
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Now get an image of Starcraft 8v8 for comparison
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
knorke wrote: thats more a result of the way ta plays than map layout.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Not really, get a ccr game for example, it's action potentially everywhere
And its not the only layout type that gives that.
And its not the only layout type that gives that.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
You can make maps that will play differently.
You can make maps that will play like SC,within the limits of ta unit sets of course.
One can make a map with only a few key mex spots that give high yield and restrict construction around it to prevent turret porc.
Million different thing...
Fact is mapper choose to do the standard left vs right top versus bottom corner versus corner and place mexes and spread metal to maintain such gamepay on their maps.
You can make maps that will play like SC,within the limits of ta unit sets of course.
One can make a map with only a few key mex spots that give high yield and restrict construction around it to prevent turret porc.
Million different thing...
Fact is mapper choose to do the standard left vs right top versus bottom corner versus corner and place mexes and spread metal to maintain such gamepay on their maps.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Play ccr 8v8 and say that. Hell, dsd can be interesting in smaller battles. I think the solution is bigger maps with more places for each player, even if they want to play linearly.Johannes wrote:Not really, get a ccr game for example, it's action potentially everywhere
And its not the only layout type that gives that.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Name one big map that is an honest attempt at making a big map play well for a small amount of players...
All big maps are automatically made with metal amounts and number of metal spots to accommodate big teams..
All big maps are automatically made with metal amounts and number of metal spots to accommodate big teams..
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Sadly the SC tools just show APMNow get an image of Starcraft 8v8 for comparison
Of course on a flat map, battles spread out more. Even more so if you have clouds of flashs driving around, that is quite dynamic. But in a > 4v4 teamgame? During the timeframe that matters, ie excluding any battles that are basically cleaning up? I am not so sure...Johannes wrote:Not really, get a ccr game for example, it's action potentially everywhere
And its not the only layout type that gives that.
I would expect most games to look like this:
http://knorke.net23.net/battlereports/C ... g.txt.html
(would need more games to have any real meaning)
sorry if i sounded grouchy in last posts, just a bit annoyed at the world, the universe and everything.
Last edited by knorke on 09 Oct 2010, 04:03, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Theres many big team battles with dynamic flow, mutual destruction etc. but that is more of an exception than the rule.
Nuclear Winter 4v4, for example, with good players should always be pretty dynamic I think though...
But of course if the map starts out as already split, of course that is not that dynamic no matter what the game. A lot of people PREFER those restricted front lines, that way they don't have to spread their attention as much, just build the 5 mexes in front of you and spam samsons. But don't blame the game for players prefering that, it is easy to play dynamic battles if you keep the # of players down compared to the map size.
To some point you can just increase the map size and keep the battles spreading all over, but at some point the map would just have ridiculously long rush distances or really silly shape (making for like 8 1v1s, and whats the point in that)...
Also shape of ccr makes it so that as team size increases, the front line gets more narrow - starting at corners makes the opposite corners hard to defend (like (12*16)~14 span in the middle between players) , spanning the box all the way horizontally gives just 12.
Nuclear Winter 4v4, for example, with good players should always be pretty dynamic I think though...
But of course if the map starts out as already split, of course that is not that dynamic no matter what the game. A lot of people PREFER those restricted front lines, that way they don't have to spread their attention as much, just build the 5 mexes in front of you and spam samsons. But don't blame the game for players prefering that, it is easy to play dynamic battles if you keep the # of players down compared to the map size.
To some point you can just increase the map size and keep the battles spreading all over, but at some point the map would just have ridiculously long rush distances or really silly shape (making for like 8 1v1s, and whats the point in that)...
Also shape of ccr makes it so that as team size increases, the front line gets more narrow - starting at corners makes the opposite corners hard to defend (like (12*16)~14 span in the middle between players) , spanning the box all the way horizontally gives just 12.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
DSD.Gota wrote:Name one big map that is an honest attempt at making a big map play well for a small amount of players...
All big maps are automatically made with metal amounts and number of metal spots to accommodate big teams..
The solution for bad big team games is even bigger maps. If the team size doesn't increase proportionately, each player will have more area to play on, removing the linear gameplay.
Re: Where did all the mappers go?
Gota, what about my map i made year ago? http://mapinfo.adune.nl/?map=DeltaSiege_Island_8_Way I havent seen you playing it.
I would really like to see how it plays with pro players only, because i think that map has a lot to offer. 4v4 all pros etc. Should be epic enough.
I was going to make more uniplayercount maps, but since autohosts forces people to stick on DSD etc, i feel its pointless to waste 8 hours on a map that nobody will play... All the maps ive made has followed the same symptoms: they join only if i host, and people keep joining only if there is at least 16 players all the time >_> Thats one of the main reasons why DSD is the most played map too: its big enough for 16 players.
I would really like to see how it plays with pro players only, because i think that map has a lot to offer. 4v4 all pros etc. Should be epic enough.
I was going to make more uniplayercount maps, but since autohosts forces people to stick on DSD etc, i feel its pointless to waste 8 hours on a map that nobody will play... All the maps ive made has followed the same symptoms: they join only if i host, and people keep joining only if there is at least 16 players all the time >_> Thats one of the main reasons why DSD is the most played map too: its big enough for 16 players.