Compost Heap

[PicassoCT]

You know, the Interwebs can Inform you, entertaint you, and if you let it, reduce your attentionspan, till you cant finnish a sentence, without forgetting the topic- whatever. Now this thread is for the longtermstuff, essays, links towards longterm interesting sites, longtime developments and even longer developers. That shall be its only limitation.

Here is a article, i read today, and it changed my mind on how language (who i thought was pretty unimportant in shapping your thinking, otherwise no globalisation) works out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magaz ... wanted=all

[FireStorm_]

Just finished reading the article.
Very, very interesting.

I once saw a documentary about Europe in relation to the two world wars it has seen. In a part about Russia someone commented Russian was a very straight forward language.
And thought it might cause their ideas regarding WWII to be more straight forward as well. It was also claimed that because of this, pride about achievement during the war was still more alive than in other European countries.

Personally I think it might be true for the weaponry the Russians designed for WWII. Their machines might be more straight forward because the language doesn't allow for much more complexity. Like the easy to operate T-34, perhaps.

(Short note on the compost heap: Aren't there enough on this forum already? Or better: Doesn't the forum itself work as the desired heap? )

[PicassoCT]

Concerning the heap, it was supposed to be a longterm heap, swallowing everything that needs time to diggest.

[knorke]

Their machines might be more straight forward because the language doesn't allow for much more complexity. Like the easy to operate T-34, perhaps.

Probally more because the russian weather is quite harsh and fragile stuff breaks. With long distances to travel stuff must be reliable and easy to fix.

I think landscape might shape thinking more than language.
Like living with huge mountains towering on the horizon you get more religious maybe.

[hoijui]

yeah, good call with the environment (landscape). that is indeed a feasible idea: the environment shapes the way of thinking, and the language got formed out of the way of thinking.

[FireStorm_]

Or does the environment form the language? I think that just as feasible/possible...

Did you guys read the article? It is mainly about how one talks about Environment, more precisely Direction, and how it affects what one might (be able to) think.

So i agree bringing up Environment is a very good point, but i thought it already been made.

[zwzsg]

Did you guys read the article? It is mainly about how one talks about Environment, more precisely Direction, and how it affects what one might (be able to) think.

Did you read the article? It stressed quite clearly that no, language does not affect what one might be able to think, but what one is forced to think.

[Gota]

I once read a very interesting article about how the environment might be effecting the formation and endurance of societies and countries..
It claimed that when a country has very powerful borders strengthened by natural borders like mountain chains, seas, deserts and so on, the country or society tend to last longer than their equivalents in an area that is not sheltered by geography, and in fact the formation of alliances or shared cultures is bound in the long term by geography

The article Picasso posted is very interesting.
I wonder what happens if you know and use several languages for a long period of time.
I also wonder how differently constructed languages can effect the sense of humor of their speakers if at all.

EDIT
Picasso, doesn't this thread itself strengthens what you seem to go against?exploring the surface of many random topics as oppose to discussing one topic and delving deeper into it.

[FireStorm_]

...but what one is forced to think.

I got that. I just meant that being forced thinking one thing, it might exclude other thoughts at that moment. (I usually think about one subject at a time.)

So you are right. I used the wrong word. Because it does not have to effect ones ability to think a certain thing at another point in time.

[PicassoCT]

Picasso, doesn't this thread itself strengthens what you seem to go against?exploring the surface of many random topics as oppose to discussing one topic and delving deeper into it.

Oha, now if that is the case, you ve won, good Sir. If anyone wants to apologize for beeing right- iminmyroom!

We desperatly need a way to slam a door in the interwebs.

Now, back to topic: If language can limit/shape the thinking, is learning a second one of a more liberal society (like enlgish) in itself a act of liberation for some citizens in despotised countrys?

[Gota]

the only reason learning English might be liberating is cause its an international language thus allowing to get information faster and with less effort.
learning other european languages will not cause any more "liberalization" since they are not international languages.

[PicassoCT]

It is one of the strange customs of the oxford english, to question oneself with every statement, isn┬┤t it? So what if that is like fertilizer for enlightment...

[MidKnight]

The article Picasso posted is very interesting.
I wonder what happens if you know and use several languages for a long period of time.
I also wonder how differently constructed languages can effect the sense of humor of their speakers if at all.

I've been able to speak English almost all my life, but it isn't my first language.

Lots of jokes I tell make people look at me funny, and lots of humorous observations I make receive odd looks. When I'm talking with people from my native country, though, these same jokes receive laughs all around. People have commented that my humor is more like that of my native country.

Interestingly enough, I think in English most of the time.

[knorke]

Or does the environment form the language? I think that just as feasible/possible...

That as well, of course.
In the last years many new words have been invented for new invented things.
If something does not exist in an area, there is no word for it: snow, certain animals, ships,...

Now, back to topic: If language can limit/shape the thinking, is learning a second one of a more liberal society (like enlgish) in itself a act of liberation for some citizens in despotised countrys?

What Gota said but I think it also has some symbolic value.
Thats why a certain language is often enforced after all.

It claimed that when a country has very powerful borders strengthened by natural borders like mountain chains, seas, deserts and so on, the country or society tend to last longer than their equivalents in an area that is not sheltered by geography, and in fact the formation of alliances or shared cultures is bound in the long term by geography

Sounds logical but also more influences create a more diverse, "better" culture compared to an isolated one.

[Machete234]

"There is something north of your foot"
and in our system it could be in front, behind, left or right.

I remember me being german learning french that
Its very hard get the genders of objects right since they are like 20-30 percent exactly the opposite and the rest was the same or vice versa who knows.
The fact that it could be the same gender as in your language or one of the 20-50% exceptions makes you totally insane.

English people will have to learn that there are genders for everything when they learn such a language.
People with an gender system in their language will have to relearn what they already learned.

English really is a piece of cake when you look at the grammar.
(And I admit that it is not dumb to call dead objects simply "it")

I think landscape might shape thinking more than language.

Americans will build everything bigger than in europe.
The dutch build at least their houses very small.
Compare how much unused land is there in these two countries.

[TradeMark]

I wonder which is harder:
1) Learn a new language with no gender system at all when your mother tongue has strong gender system.
2) Learn a new language with strong gender system when your mother tongue has no gender system at all.

As a finnish, its already confusing to speak english and use he/she, sometimes i forget to think the genders, so i might say he instead of she, his instead of her, etc.

I cant even imagine thinking genders for objects... sounds really stupid

I liked the geographical coordinate system in that article... really cool. would be really helpful in a hotel etc these days.

[PicassoCT]

Maybe its she time to force our gendersystem upon she english language. Just to make you feel moar at him home

[Gota]

Maybe its she time to force our gendersystem upon she english language. Just to make you feel moar at him home

Can we also force the russian "softer" version of words...
I'll give an example.
Chair-Chairick(a lighter version of chair chair could either be smaller or softer or weaker etc..)-chaira(female form)
Table-Tablechick-Table(male form)

also lets use the korean alphabet-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul#Readability

[Panda]

I'm sure that the environment does affect a person's outlook on things in the moment, but I'm not sure about things like how mountains or planes would affect a person's beliefs. I know that, where I live, everything is green, almost all year and there's a lot of dense, jungle-like vegetation in less populated areas. You can often hear cicadas in the evenings and there are a lot of interesting little creatures like lightning bugs around. The land is as flat as land can get, so the sky looks huge. This scenery generally leaves you with a sense that the world is huge. What you believe as a consequence of being in this environment depends on whether or not you are intimidated by the view.

I don't imagine that someone would really get quite the same feeling living in the mountains, so their experiences would certainly be different. Different experiences does contribute to different views on life, but specific beliefs would still be difficult to determine especially on an individual basis. I do know that people, in general, where I live tend to do things outside more often than people in areas further north, like in the northeastern United States. They seem to like the wide-open sky and going outside more often outside does influence a person's way of life and beliefs.

All of this talk about spatial orientation and the environment makes me curious about is whether or not having good spatial orientation helps a person more effectively read informational text. I was thinking about that because I was wondering how growing up in an open area affects spatial orientation.