Not that I intend to start another retarded political thread

[KaiserJ]

just want to point out that most people are making interesting comments and responding to each-other in a civil manner. <3.

saying conflict is stupid and why dont you just make peace?is a bit naive since it has always been a part of human history.Have you ever had a conflict with someone?are people getting killed in canada due to crime..It is in essence the same thing

well, im not in disagreement with you... and it's not like im a particularly mellow and peaceful person either, lawd knows i rage quite often, sometimes even on this forum... but i'll do my best to explain my own spin on things and where i stand.

canada is a country of immigrants. we dont have the long history of israel ...(unless you want to count the native americans) our oldest buildings are generally about 250 years old... which is quite a few generations, but pales in comparison to the amount of time in which european and middle-eastern countries have had people living there in an organized society. we are the noobs of the world.

since people are immigrating from everywhere constantly, it wouldn't make much sense to bring pre-existing beef with you. say you moved here, and it turned out a palestinian was your next-door neighbour... it wouldn't be "canadian" to turn around and start getting angry with him and call him your enemy, because you are no longer israeli, you are a canadian. hell, if people brought their prior beefage with them to canada and then acted on it, we'd just be a smoking crater right now.

example : when the bosnia situation was going on, we had a TON of people move here from serbia and croatia. some immigrants felt uncomfortable living in a new land, as anyone would, and formed their own small communities and groups. i remember the serbian kids all arriving one year, and they all hung out together because of the common language... i started to see gang signs on the walls (white power symbol with serbja written beneath)... but then, a few years later, where did all these dudes go? they must have realized that "ok we're all in the same boat" and were amalgamated into the society as a whole. years later, i sit with these dudes and have a beer and chat like old friends... i doubt that would have been possible when they first arrived, due to the difference in mindset.

the same shit is going down currently with somalian immigrants... after the recent genocide, we had a ton of immigrants, which resulted in pocket communities and gang activity. i just feel like when people come here there's a certain point that they get to where they realize "hey, this country is actually pretty awesome, nobody is out to get me because of my ethnicity or culture" and then the next step of course is to actually start thinking in a canadian manner. someone tells me something horrible about their past in another land, and my response is invariably "thats gnarly, im glad you're safely one of us now"

and yeah, it is pretty naive of me to say "why cant we all just get along" because clearly we can't, but at the same time, this is what i've been shot full of in my formative years, and quite frankly i LIKE to like everyone.

as far as canadian soldiers abroad goes; they are there as "peacekeepers" for the most part. i would march to ottawa in protest if they started pulling shit like the USA or england (and others ofc)

as far as my own perspective, a line of a song comes to mind...

go ahead and label me an asshole 'cause i can
accept responsibility for what ive done but not for who i am

sure i dislike people, and i get in conflicts with them, even physical ones sometime, but it's just ingrained in my brain that i should judge people by their own individual actions rather than their culture or ethnic group or something else from the past that they have no control over.

someones grandpa killed my grandpa in a war long ago? i can forgive it, it has nothing really to do with me. someone spills a drink on me at the bar? they're getting a knuckle sandwich

[Gota]

Well i guess that's why people come to canada cause its very peacfull.
Well done.

[KaiserJ]

well, it just freaks me out; freaks me out that your country has to build a wall to stop terrorists. i can't imagine living in a situation like that... and i can understand why people DO live there; nationalistic and heritage reasons... i just have no personal connection to the conflict so i suppose it's impossible for me to relate, and probably makes most of what i wrote sound like some utter BS as much as i believe in it all myself.

conversely i would be pretty pissed off if some shit went down and YOU were hurt, because i know you, and consider you a friend.

sorry to turn this thread into mostly unrelated rants

[scifi]

This is a complicated conflict/matter, i mean there had been severall varieties of people living in the area we call now israel/palestine. The funny thing is that the current people that live there werent around by the time the british left.

What you call palestinians are in fact imigrants from all the surrouding arab countrys, prety mutch the area around jerusalem and Tela viv was barren wasteland, it wasnt a UBER populated area.
The reason there are so many people in Gaza and what is so called palestine, is cause theyr the descendents of a jihad that was called on that area.

Theres a very good example for this in Africa, the western sahara, currently ocupied by marroco and a former spanish colony, after the spanish left a jihad was called to retake that land, people from all over the arab world went to the promised land, they ocupied and took the area for their own purposes. The western sahara people, now live in argelia in concentration camps.

NO WORD FROM THE UN FOR THIS....

The guys that made these problems were the british, they left the area without even considering later consequences(the actual shape of israel proves this)
Who in its rigth mind would divide a country that way split population areas e.t.c.......

i cant tell you who is to blame, but i can 100% tell you who started the problem, the USSR, America naturaly suported Israel, Russia trying to stop the US increasing its influence in the golf incited the arabs to attack israel (not to mention arabs had a natural hate for jewish people), a proof of this is the tons of russian material held by syria jordania and egypt in each of israel independance wars.

Anyways this isnt gona end soon, maybe it will stay like this for many years, obama wont solve this, both "areas" will become more isolated and eventualy palestine areas will become either an anarchist zone or will go back to jordania and egypt.

[scifi]

I double post to say
i <3 canada, i have tons of family there, its a very nice place to live in =)

[tombom]

What you call palestinians are in fact imigrants from all the surrouding arab countrys, prety mutch the area around jerusalem and Tela viv was barren wasteland, it wasnt a UBER populated area.
The reason there are so many people in Gaza and what is so called palestine, is cause theyr the descendents of a jihad that was called on that area.

!!!

Do you have any sort of evidence for this

[Gota]

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

Tel Aviv was founded in the beginning of the 20th century.Jerusalem at that time was much much smaller.
In any case this has no relevance to the discussion what so ever.
Palestinians only began "losing" territory after they decided not to accept the UN partition plan and declared war.
From there on the Palestinians who fled received a special status of refugees in other countries and in the territories that transfers through heritage, a ridiculous concept that was never used before or since in nay other part of the world or with any other refugee group.
None of the arab countries did anything to deal with the refuges or assimilate them(for obvious reasons) hence why there are still refugee camps till this very day.
There was another group of refugees that a lot have forgotten or never heard of,the several hundred thousand jews expelled from arab countries after the 1948 war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... slim_lands

[echoone]

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
In any case this has no relevance to the discussion what so ever.
Palestinians only began "losing" territory after they decided not to accept the UN partition plan and declared war.

Well, to be fair, as a signer of some treaty (sorry, forget which), the taking of, and holding of the land is in clear violation. Of course, that ignores that much of the immigrants, now called, "Palestinians", specifically moved to the region to initiate conflict with their Jewish enemy. Meaning, its only an issue because they moved there for conflict and and got their asses kicked because they are ill-equipped for the conflict they sought out.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the illegal holding and continued expansion onto "illegally" held land is a frequent "Palestinian" battle cry used to leverage sympathy around the world. And in turn, the frequent near nazi abuses (irony of ironies) by the Israeli military on the "Palestinian civilians" only lends creedence to their pleas and battle cries; in turn prodding retaliatory terror attacks. Which in turn prods additional abuse by the Israeli military.

As someone else said, its quite an intractable situation; especially since leading by ego is all but mandate in that part of the world. Its like watching peacocks with machine guns and bombs. Only, arms and legs go flying rather than feathers.

BTW, koodos on the six day war, which actually had ramifications for almost the entire world's military complex.

[Gota]

hmm,right.

[SwiftSpear]

I didnt know canada actually had troops abroad.
What i meant was ,are canadians somehow fundamentally different than the brits or US citizens.
same western culture,similar values..
I'm saying that perhaps the chances of canada participating in some dispute oversees is not that crazy...perhaps under different conditions,perhaps if canada wasnt so lightly populated ...
Are canadians in some way inherently more peaceful than the us and the UK citizens,countries that considered liberal even amongst western countries.
This is all a reply to Kaiser's difficulty to understand conflicts implyign that Canadians are somehow inherently different.

Are citizens responsible for the actions of their government? I think Kaiser kind of already addressed that point, in saying "I think 99% of both populaces would be happy to end the conflict entirely tommorrow" (paraphrased).

Canadians grow up in an environment where our country is in no immediate threat from anyone, has no real enemies, and with a government that doesn't tend to meddle evilly outside of our own boarders (they sure like screwing us citizens over though).

I don't think there's any implication that canadians are different, we just don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. If anything, I think there's an implication that we're the same.

If anything, we're pretty much all stupid little creatures that it seems so impossible to us to live in a world where we just don't have to kill eachother all the time.

[Jazcash]

Any region with a cyber robot from the future for a leader will always feel safe.

[Gota]

Any region with a cyber robot from the future for a leader will always feel safe.

ha?

[scifi]

here are demografic reports that states what i said

Tons of people imigrated to the area around tel aviv and jerusalem
both jews and arabs, this clearly demonstrates that jews didnt took the land of other people, cause none lived there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

Official reports

In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[45]

By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including bedouin).


A very interesting fact

The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine

Whether there was significant Arab immigration into Palestine after the beginning of Jewish settlement there in the late 19th century has become a matter of some controversy. The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations, the 1938 Palestine Partition Commission, Population expert A.M. Carr-Saunders, and the Anglo-American Committee concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", not to any substantial immigration.[46]

According to Martin Gilbert, 50,000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939 "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[47]


Also another fact
According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[26] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[27] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[28]

[tombom]

This still shows an Arab majority population by a good margin, I don't know what this is supposed to say

[scifi]

This still shows an Arab majority population by a good margin, I don't know what this is supposed to say

the only thing i wanted to prove is that if there was only jewsih imigration, palestinian population would be very close to 10%

There were a lot of "Arab" imigration to these areas, what i proved so far is that up to 1941 it was due to the new job offers and increase in life expectanse by british colonialism(ship maintenence in the port of haifa e.t.c...) and some jewish people.

Now what you can clearly see is that after 1941 you see a dramatic increase in demografic statistics
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
I wanted to prove this
3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.



And also i wanted to prove that

7. The city of Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since about 1896 - The city of Jerusalem itself there was a Jewish majority since about 1896, but probably not before. The district of Jerusalem (as opposed to the city) comprised a very wide area in Ottoman and British times, in which there was a Muslim majority. This included Jericho, Bethlehem and other towns. Within the Jerusalem district, there was a subdistrict of Jerusalem that includes many of the immediate suburbs such as Eyn Karem, Beit Zeit etc. In that subdistrict, the Jews remained a minority , with only about 52,000 out of 132,000 persons in 1931 for example.

Also i wanted to show the number of jews and palestinians in 1937

1937 jews ->386,084 Arabs ->875,947

and current palestinians living in israel figure around 543 00 this is an aproximate number from what of the independance of Israel

Now we all know that religous liders called a jihad to that area after 1948 this is how i speculate the large palestinian population that exist today in Gaza

[Forboding Angel]

just want to point out that most people are making interesting comments and responding to each-other in a civil manner. <3.

The Jews suck. They like, killed Jebus and stuff.


Muhahahaha, spoiled the civil thread!

[Gota]

now now...I think the jews have at least the right to kill their own jews right...

[Sucky_Lord]

1:25, its basic!

[Panda]

Any region with a cyber robot from the future for a leader will always feel safe.

Not if the cyber robots are like this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-z54EP0 ... W8HG-BzD2o

[bobthedinosaur]

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/jcook20100724