Not that I intend to start another retarded political thread

[Caydr]

Seriously, I would feel more uncomfortable about whether or not I was being prejudiced against him, than I would from being uncomfortable because I'm prejudiced against him.

The world doesn't think that way anymore.

[Gota]

Just look at this thread and the effort i have to go through.
Obviously i wouldn't consider this much if i was planning to leave but it would still be very frustrating to either go through this process many times abroad or just not answer even though i hear sometimes completely horrible and untrue things.
Like i wrote twice its not like its some crazy fear and it would not effect my decision to leave but it is a reality i as a former Israeli will have to face with at least for the coming future.

People see big strong army and Palestinians throwing rocks and its much more appealing to be on the pal side than having to listen to a history lesson or trying to get to the core of the problem and understanding why things are as they are.
I am shocked when people post that the Palestinian side is not heard or that the world is pro Israeli.There is no chance the Israeli side will ever be as loud.Israel is a small country with no natural resources.
a lot of the muslims communities around the world see Israel as their enemy and make sure they are heard.
There are 55 muslim countries some with huge oil reserves and tons of influance and some are also governed by fundamentalist regimes,the overall muslim population is over 1 billion last i heard and a lot of the countries where these people live have censorship further aggrevating the misinformation.

all this is a shit load of pressure and merges into an overall very noticable voice.

[Peet]

Second of all,should all people in conflict zones pack their bags and move to Europe or the US?im not sure how your own countrymen would respond to such attempts XD

They often do...a very significant portion of immigration occurs for this very reason! Local responses vary widely depending on the region. In my city at least, there are things like school fundraisers to bring the families of immigrant students over and help them gain citizenship. And in some other cases, well, http://bnp.org.uk/

Seriously, I would feel more uncomfortable about whether or not I was being prejudiced against him, than I would from being uncomfortable because I'm prejudiced against him.

The world doesn't think that way anymore.

You and I are Canadians, filled with propaganda from birth about evil traditions like equality. Not all of the world thinks the way our society does, and not all of our society thinks the way we do.

[KaiserJ]

an ethnic jew is not equal to someone who is a jew via religion. both groups exist. i would assume that one could live in israel, not be jewish, and still have nationalistic feelings. for example : a good friend of mine is only 1/4 jewish blood but is jewish by birth, and refers to himself as a jew.

both sides seem equally hostile towards eachother; and it isn't even a case of palestinians vs israelis, its a case of international powers meddling in other countries where there is a conflict and making matters worse.

from an outsiders perspective (and i would hope a fairly neutral one) israel / palestine / west bank / surrounding area seems like just a big sandbox for britian, russia and the USA to go and play in. britain managed to kick off the whole shebang by declaring the state of palestine after WW1, then russia and the USA shook their dicks as well by shipping in a shitload of weapons.

the wall i suppose in theory was a good idea, and if it stops acts of terror, then that's great... but i would think that the whole reason people are so pissed off about it is that it was built in some areas in such a way that houses were cut off from villages, farmers cut off from their fields, and communities were fragmented... kind of like tossing rocks at a hornets nest

so after like 100 years of war (just talking about after britains involvement, there have been conflicts in the area for many thousands of years) israel and palestine are bombed out and depleted; im not sure how either are doing economically but i would guess that it isn't great... kind of hard to have any sort of industry with bombs flying overhead.

i liked the commercial, and i felt it was a good illustration of how futile and inhuman a conflict like this actually is. i would guess that a good 99% of either states population would happily end the conflict tomorrow, but everyone is so sunk into the idea of the conflict being there that it's next to impossible to stop.

and yeah; tons of room in canada for them to come and live, but unforunately we dont have any pre-existing and disputed monuments to scrap over... although, i guess if it was required, i would be willing to put forth casa-loma as the new temple-on-the-mount

[KaiserJ]

on the whole "canadian perspective", the israel situation seems ridiculous to me

might as well hate the germans, because so many of my relatives died in WW2... might as well hate the italians, because the romans invaded and enslaved the south of england... hell, might as well hate the chinese for returning hong kong to communist rule.

i mean, none of this shit ever happened to me personally so i can't really connect with it... if anything, it leads me to have a hatred for conflict in general rather than a hatred against any specific group or country.

i would hope that people here have a similar perspective.

[Gota]

an ethnic jew is not equal to someone who is a jew via religion. both groups exist. i would assume that one could live in israel, not be jewish, and still have nationalistic feelings. for example : a good friend of mine is only 1/4 jewish blood but is jewish by birth, and refers to himself as a jew.

both sides seem equally hostile towards eachother; and it isn't even a case of palestinians vs israelis, its a case of international powers meddling in other countries where there is a conflict and making matters worse.

from an outsiders perspective (and i would hope a fairly neutral one) israel / palestine / west bank / surrounding area seems like just a big sandbox for britian, russia and the USA to go and play in. britain managed to kick off the whole shebang by declaring the state of palestine after WW1, then russia and the USA shook their dicks as well by shipping in a shitload of weapons.

the wall i suppose in theory was a good idea, and if it stops acts of terror, then that's great... but i would think that the whole reason people are so pissed off about it is that it was built in some areas in such a way that houses were cut off from villages, farmers cut off from their fields, and communities were fragmented... kind of like tossing rocks at a hornets nest

so after like 100 years of war (just talking about after britains involvement, there have been conflicts in the area for many thousands of years) israel and palestine are bombed out and depleted; im not sure how either are doing economically but i would guess that it isn't great... kind of hard to have any sort of industry with bombs flying overhead.

i liked the commercial, and i felt it was a good illustration of how futile and inhuman a conflict like this actually is. i would guess that a good 99% of either states population would happily end the conflict tomorrow, but everyone is so sunk into the idea of the conflict being there that it's next to impossible to stop.

and yeah; tons of room in canada for them to come and live, but unforunately we dont have any pre-existing and disputed monuments to scrap over... although, i guess if it was required, i would be willing to put forth casa-loma as the new temple-on-the-mount

About enthnicity and religion you are correct but the discussion was about what led to the formation of Israel and the people who were behind it and were immigrating and building it were mostly not religious at all in fact they were probably atheists/agnostics like many of the socialists/communists of the time but considered themselves jews by nationality or hebrews or whatever word from the biblical lexicon you want to assign to them.

[Gota]

on the whole "canadian perspective", the israel situation seems ridiculous to me

might as well hate the germans, because so many of my relatives died in WW2... might as well hate the italians, because the romans invaded and enslaved the south of england... hell, might as well hate the chinese for returning hong kong to communist rule.

i mean, none of this shit ever happened to me personally so i can't really connect with it... if anything, it leads me to have a hatred for conflict in general rather than a hatred against any specific group or country.

i would hope that people here have a similar perspective.

Is canada really that different than the US or Britain?Both of which are fighting in countries that have no borders with them and are not even close to them.
I think if you can understand that its much easier to understand how people can have disputes if they are neighboors.

saying conflict is stupid and why dont you just make peace?is a bit naive since it has always been a part of human history.Have you ever had a conflict with someone?are people getting killed in canada due to crime..It is in essence the same thing.

[Peet]

on the whole "canadian perspective", the israel situation seems ridiculous to me

might as well hate the germans, because so many of my relatives died in WW2... might as well hate the italians, because the romans invaded and enslaved the south of england... hell, might as well hate the chinese for returning hong kong to communist rule.

i mean, none of this shit ever happened to me personally so i can't really connect with it... if anything, it leads me to have a hatred for conflict in general rather than a hatred against any specific group or country.

i would hope that people here have a similar perspective.

Is canada really that different than the US or Britain?Both of which are fighting in countries that have no borders with them and are not even close to them.

Canada remains in Afghanistan in the interest of installing a democracy and removing militant groups, and participates in other NATO peacekeeping operations, presently in the Congo, Sudan, and Darfur. The US/UK operations in Iraq were explicitly an invasion, without UN support. There is no comparison to be made in that aspect.

[Gota]

on the whole "canadian perspective", the israel situation seems ridiculous to me

might as well hate the germans, because so many of my relatives died in WW2... might as well hate the italians, because the romans invaded and enslaved the south of england... hell, might as well hate the chinese for returning hong kong to communist rule.

i mean, none of this shit ever happened to me personally so i can't really connect with it... if anything, it leads me to have a hatred for conflict in general rather than a hatred against any specific group or country.

i would hope that people here have a similar perspective.

Is canada really that different than the US or Britain?Both of which are fighting in countries that have no borders with them and are not even close to them.

Canada remains in Afghanistan in the interest of installing a democracy and removing militant groups, and participates in other NATO peacekeeping operations, presently in the Congo, Sudan, and Darfur. The US operations in Iraq were explicitly an invasion, without UN support...the two countries can't really be compared in that aspect.

I didnt know canada actually had troops abroad.
What i meant was ,are canadians somehow fundamentally different than the brits or US citizens.
same western culture,similar values..
I'm saying that perhaps the chances of canada participating in some dispute oversees is not that crazy...perhaps under different conditions,perhaps if canada wasnt so lightly populated ...
Are canadians in some way inherently more peaceful than the us and the UK citizens,countries that considered liberal even amongst western countries.
This is all a reply to Kaiser's difficulty to understand conflicts implyign that Canadians are somehow inherently different.

[Caydr]

Everyone in USA, Canada, and UK were whipped up into thinking that we were fighting the good fight after 9/11. It was very traumatic even for us up north. My mom for example freaked out when she saw "turban people" for a while, she was actually scared of them.

At this point, I think 90% of people just want to get out of those conflicts, but fortunately there are some people with a sense of responsibility who aren't just going to leave entire countries with no infrastructure since we blew it all up to "liberate" them.

And, in a sense, yeah, we did some good, but I think the hate we've generated has hurt us and will hurt us more than it was worth. A handful of us die every now and then and we shit bricks - Estimates put Iraqi civilian casualties at over a million. 3,000 was enough to start two wars, what will over a million do? And in countries with people willing to suicide bomb themselves, at that.

It's exactly the situation between Israel and Palestine - hate upon hate. We have the luxury that we'll eventually be able to leave though.

[Caydr]

Yes, I think that Canada is probably different in many significant ways when compared to US or UK. USA and Canada, because we're basically made-up countries with people from everywhere else, have a very different perspective on things than UK or other "western" countries.

We're definitely influenced by the UK heavily, but we have much in common with America too. The major difference is that we have a policy of tolerance and multiculturalism, while in the 'States it's all about assimilation. Once you're an American, you're an American, and you're damn proud of it.

When you're a Canadian, you're probably more likely to identify yourself with a certain culture rather than just "Canadian". We don't have a singular national identity, more like a common understanding that we'd rather be peaceful than not. Mutual trust rather than mutual understanding necessarily, if that makes sense. If you realize that the people around you are just as complex in their thoughts and motivations as you are, you understand that the weird things they do aren't anything to get upset about.

We basically follow the US lead on anything major though since regardless of our differences we're inseparable, mutually-dependent allies.

[Peet]

I do think our national culture as a whole is inherently less predisposed to violence than the US, though I do not know the sociological reasons behind this. It shows in our crime per capita as well as our foreign policy. Politically, as well, we lean far more toward the left, to the point where political conversations with americans become bizarre.

[Gota]

On the risk of going off topic I think that if the US wants democracy in Iraq it will have to stay there for a very long time,if it wont Iraq will crumble under the pressures around it.

Westeners dont understand the mentality of people here,im being serious...
Im not saying people here are fundamentally flawed but they are not used to democracy or democratic values.
The value of life here is low and always has been.
It will take generations to transform the middle east into a democratic region if not a lot more time..
There is no history of democracy here except for renegades like Lebanon and Israel who has been strongly influenced by the west and has extensive ties with Europe and the US(Lebanon was and than it crumbled and fell under a dictatorship,syria).
He who has the idea that everyone here is ready for the american material dream of getting a car a house and 2 kids is badly mistaken and perhaps a bit arrogant to think everyone would immidietly want to accept westenr values.
This slightly naive notion has been proven wrong many times the most evident is of course usama bin laden who was part of a one of the richest families in the world yet became a fundamentalist and anti western terrorist cause of the influence of the west and its Ideals.

[Caydr]

And I ride it like a boss.

Actually I thought I was pretty much parroting the stuff they say on the tourism brochures. But it's true what I said, I think because we aim for understanding rather than assimilation, we are naturally less inclined to become hateful and/or violent.

Could also be that we aren't indonctrinated from youth to believe we've got all these rights and a single-page document from 200 years ago can be 100% applicable to every situation.

Or maybe it's just that it's so damn cold out we'd rather stay inside than be bothered to go out murdering.

Or it could be our crippling fear that if we aren't "like Americans but nicer" we'll have no idea who we are.

[Gota]

FUEL FOR THE FIRE!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... al-sex-jew

I'm just reading an article about the arab jewish rape trial.

What the guardian "forgot"(not surprised at the selective memory of the writers in the guardian) to mention is that it was a plea bargain,meaning the court was not asked to decide on the matter.
I havent noticed this whole issue before but now im reading an article about it and it states that there was a lot of criticism in legal circles about this case but again it was a plea bargain.
An appeal process will commence in several weeks apparently.

Maybe the fact he agreed to such a plea bargain means there is something more that was not made public and was settled privately or just a bad move or fuck knows.

The thing is that weird rulings happen in other countries as well,some rulings even completely ridiculous and they are than overruled with an appeal or sometimes not.
The court system in Israel is independent and works fine not to mention that I can totally understand how someone who reads the guardian would have very strong anti Israeli opinions not to mention a completely skewed understanding of the whole matter.

[Caydr]

Oh shit, Beherith is browsing this forum, everyone get in your parting shot, it's about to be locked. And just when we were on the verge of solving the Israel/Palestinian conflict by teaching them to be more Canadian, too.

[Teutooni]

We should send the Finnish bear cavalry to club both sides into submission.

All territorial and cultural disputes since ever have been resolved with blood. Truth is we don't know another way.

[echoone]

The value of life here is low and always has been.

I don't think that statement can be stressed enough. That's one of the pillars that always seems to follow democracy. Where democracy takes root, the value of life increases.

I no longer remember the exact values, but wars and conflicts between democratic nations are almost completely lacking. Its conflicts between non-democratic nations which by far out strip all others. Its true conflicts between democratic and non-democratic nations exist (current conflicts, case in point), but even still these are dramatically fewer than those between non-democratic nations.

It will take generations to transform the middle east into a democratic region if not a lot more time..

As others have already pointed out, much of the face of the middle east is already completely arbitrary, taking the route of democracy isn't completely without merit. There is something about democracy which seems to strike a cord with the human condition. But it still must have time to take root. There is no doubt, you are right about that.

So to come full circle. With democracy comes a heightened respect for life. With a heightened respect for life comes the desire to work with your neighbors rather than blind hatred and rage. And it is such that it lays the ground work for long term peace.

One thing about democracy is that once it takes root, it tends to be very contagious - which is why many of Iraq's surrounding nations are actively attempting to prevent it.

There is no history of democracy here except for renegades like Lebanon and Israel who has been strongly influenced by the west and has extensive ties with Europe and the US(Lebanon was and than it crumbled and fell under a dictatorship,syria).
He who has the idea that everyone here is ready for the american material dream of getting a car a house and 2 kids is badly mistaken

Well, "westernism", corporatism-capitalism, and so, need not be tied to democracy in the least. Furthermore, democracy need not look at all like the US. In fact, the US is actually more of a republic than a democracy. There actually are many working democracies in the world which look, and function absolutely nothing like the US.

and perhaps a bit arrogant to think everyone would immidietly want to accept westenr values.

Considering both the democracy and the republic started in that neck of the woods, there is no reason to associate the two with "westernization", aside from political gain and manipulation. If you've read any of the Iraqi constitution, it looks most decidedly non-western.

This slightly naive notion has been proven wrong many times the most evident is of course usama bin laden who was part of a one of the richest families in the world yet became a fundamentalist and anti western terrorist cause of the influence of the west and its Ideals.

That's a whole different can of worms.

[Beherith]

Also, this doesnt help the conflict at all either:



GDP per capita:
Israel 26,800$
Lebanon 8,200$
Syria 2,500$
Egypt 2,400$

(CIA World Factbook)

[Gota]

What exactly do you mean?