Not that I intend to start another retarded political thread

[Peet]

What you have to understand is that the core issue is the unwillingness of the Palestinians both in the gaza strip and the west bank to accept Israel as its neighboor.
As soon as they do there will be peace just like there is peace with Egypt and Jordan.

I am hesitant to agree with this sort of monopolar interpretation of the ongoing conflict's belligerents, probably primarily because of the fact that the modern sovereign state of Israel exists solely because it was installed there by the region's foreign colonial occupants coupled with the fundamental view of its people that they are divinely entitled to the real estate. I really don't think that the milennia-old zionist religious nationalist views of a group of people entitles them to relocate the present [1946-8] populace. My views are not strictly anti-zionist, they are simply a general stance that conflicts heavily with that of the zionist regime (and other forms of nationalism) the stance of those who believe that Israel as a state is entirely entitled to the land it inhabits. Happy Caydr?

However, the actions of the extremist factions whose views could be considered to be shallowly aligned with my own are deplorable in a universal sense...which leads me to have an overall neutral stance on the issue, as both sides appear to be at fault.

[Caydr]

Please don't use the words "zionist regime". Even if such a thing exists, it just makes you sound like a douchebag when you say it, since it's a term so widely used by... douchebags. Just being honest.

edit: Hey, hey, just trying to help you sound like a rational person. "Zionist Regime" is up there with "Obamacare" and "F*CK THE POLICE!"

[Gota]

Wanted to add that the peace process in the 90s was an fraud.
It was a fraud both towards Israelis and towards the rest of the world.
There was never nay intention by the palestinians to compromise or sign peace.
The absurd of the time was that as the Israeli left was supposedly in a peace process with the PLO and it's leader, yasser araft there were still terror acts against civilian population and it was in fact the most bloody few years Israel has known.
The Israeli left called those 1500 that dies as the "peace process" was ongoing "peace victims" (absurd or what?)?
The whole peace process fraud and the naive self delusion(as i perceive it) eventually ended with Yasser Arafat (who was considered a terrorist even in neighboring states and extremely corrupt) gettign a noble peace prize.
It also ended with Israeli prime minister being assasinated.

I am telling those that are interested in whats going on here that peace is nowhere near,these current obama attempts will fail i can guarantee it.
His attempts almost started a third intifada already.
If obama really wants peace all he must achieve is make the pals declare they agree to live peacefully next to Israel,if he managed this there will be peace immediately.
Funny thing is that while Israel is faced with 55 arab countries in the UN allowing them to practically pass any resolution they want against Israel the Obama administration thinks its a good idea to pressure Israel.
I am sure that he thinks he is taking care of US interests but Its definitely not gonna lead to peace(this is the cause of the "fight" between the Obama administration and Netanyahu administration).
At this point the more Israel is pressured the more Israel's Population that is disillusioned after the 90 will vote to a more right wing(when it comes to security issues) government.

[Caydr]

None of those states are on the security council though, are they? And that's the group that has the ability to actually use the UN's small amount of power for anything. IIRC the security council is basically the only part of the UN that's not just symbolic.

I mean, what are the rest going to do even if they get a majority on something? "We hereby pass this UN resolution declaring Israel to be a bunch of poopy-heads".

If the multitude of tiny Arab states find some way to abuse their power, the rules will just get changed so that they don't favor dozens of tiny countries over countries that are hundreds of times their size and population.

[Gota]

What you have to understand is that the core issue is the unwillingness of the Palestinians both in the gaza strip and the west bank to accept Israel as its neighboor.
As soon as they do there will be peace just like there is peace with Egypt and Jordan.

I am hesitant to agree with this sort of monopolar interpretation of the ongoing conflict's belligerents, probably primarily because of the fact that the modern sovereign state of Israel exists solely because it was installed there by the region's foreign colonial occupants coupled with the fundamental view of its people that they are divinely entitled to the real estate. I really don't think that the milennia-old zionist religious nationalist views of a group of people entitles them to relocate the present [1946-8] populace. My views are not strictly anti-zionist, they are simply a general stance that conflicts heavily with that of the zionist regime (and other forms of nationalism).

However, the actions of the extremist factions whose views could be considered to be shallowly aligned with my own are deplorable in a universal sense...which leads me to have an overall neutral stance on the issue, as both sides appear to be at fault.

I am sorry but you have confused many completely unrelated issues.
First of all zionism has nothing to do with religion.
The Fathers of Zionism and Israel were completely secular people,in fact they were socialists and Israel was founded by secular socialists(ever heard of the kibutz?).
Second of all Zionism does not declare superiority in any way all it states is that jews are(being an ethnic group(call them hebrews if you want)entitled to their own country much like any other people.
Jewish immigrants have labored and fought for this country much liek any other people have for their own and nobody was doing them nay favors.
This country was practically barren in the 19th century.
The state of Israel was also not some crazy colonialist dream.
There was Jewish presence in Israel always and jews started immigrating here in any way they could if anything The british tryed to do all they could to stop jewish immigration.
Just Google "british white book israel"
Being an anti zionist is stating That Israel should not exist,if your a knowledgeable person and a person that is at least trying to be unbiased you will find no just causes to support an "anti zionist" stance.


Just wanted to add that Many of the Palestinians also immigrated from neighboring countries at roughly the same time as the Jews did.

[Peet]

Alright, if my perspective is that fundamentally flawed I guess my points are null and void, but the concept of creating a state specifically due to the influx of a particular ethnicity or other group bothers me...this perspective is mostly based on the clashes during the last few centuries between the british and french in my region...several territories repeatedly changed hands, often resulting in an expulsion or extermination of the inhabitants.

[Caydr]

Whether or not Jews/Hebrews/Zionists or whatever have the right to a country or not, isn't something that belongs in the same argument as "is it a good idea to form a new country in an area that's already occupied?"

I mean, sure, have a country if there's merit to the idea (I am not educated to say whether there is or not), but it seems to be a poor choice of location.

Germany's atrocities during WW2 seem like the sort of thing for which you might take away part of their territory and give it to the victims. A Jewish state taken from German territory makes perfect sense by comparison to forming a Jewish state in territory that's hostile to them.

Backlash from Germans? Yeah maybe, but at least Germans and the surrounding European nations have a similar culture and let's not forget that Germany would be surrounded by countries that are angry at them for starting the war. They wouldn't be in any position to complain about losing some land as war reparations, especially compared to the utter economic catastrophe that was inflicted upon them for their activities relating to WW1.

I realize that the rise of the "yay terrorism" variant of Islam is a relatively recent development that couldn't have been forseen, but still...

[Gota]

Want to add that while it sounds that im trying to blame it all on the Palestinians i am not.
The Palestinian population is poor uneducated and suffered a great deal both by Israel's mistakes but IMO mainly cause of the leadership it had and the reasons for that is the influence of neighboring arab countries that see Israel IMO as a very nice scapegoat for any issues in their own dictatorships or super oppressed and poor countries.
It is obvious why nobody of our neighbors truly cares about the peace process or the Palestinians.Why would they want to deal with a very low class population especially when Jordan has a very big Palestinian majority.
Iran or the very fundamentalist Muslim regimes have other motives like religious zeal (saudi arabia,Iran).

[Gota]

Whether or not Jews/Hebrews/Zionists or whatever have the right to a country or not, isn't something that belongs in the same argument as "is it a good idea to form a new country in an area that's already occupied?"

I mean, sure, have a country if there's merit to the idea (I am not educated to say whether there is or not), but it seems to be a poor choice of location.

Germany's atrocities during WW2 seem like the sort of thing for which you might take away part of their territory and give it to the victims. A Jewish state within Germany's borders makes perfect sense by comparison to forming a Jewish state in territory that's hostile to them.

Israel had had little to do with the holocaust(sure it was a catalyst but it was only the last phase of a long process of immigration cultivation construction and in general laying foundations for a country(even military conflict with the british).
When Israel was offered independence along side the Palestinians territories were devided by the majority population in all the regions.
The immigration to Israel started in the 19th century when it was still under autumn rule.
Why was it wrong for jews to immigrate to the place to which jews had historical reference as people?
People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?from the british?the Autumn empire?
All the borders here were set by the colonizers,namely the British and french on what were those borders based on and how many different people were swallowed in the process to be left to the mercies of dictators like sadam hussein(kurds).
There were many issues with how european countries left these regions which are still echoing till today but Jews or Israel are in no way some special exception.

[Satirik]

Whether or not Jews/Hebrews/Zionists or whatever have the right to a country or not, isn't something that belongs in the same argument as "is it a good idea to form a new country in an area that's already occupied?"

I mean, sure, have a country if there's merit to the idea (I am not educated to say whether there is or not), but it seems to be a poor choice of location.

Germany's atrocities during WW2 seem like the sort of thing for which you might take away part of their territory and give it to the victims. A Jewish state within Germany's borders makes perfect sense by comparison to forming a Jewish state in territory that's hostile to them.

Israel had had little to do with the holocaust(sure it was a catalyst but it was only the last phase of a long process of immigration cultivation construction and in general laying foundations for a country(even military conflict with the british).
When Israel was offered independence along side the Palestinians territories were devided by the majority population in all the regions.
The immigration to Israel started in the 19th century when it was still under autumn rule.
Why was it wrong for jews to immigrate to the place to which jews had historical reference as people?
People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?from the british?the Autumn empire?

jew are not a people seriously ... stop watching israel television, jew is just a religion and your country wasn't made for jew to come back to their "ancestors' living place" (the real jew descendants are the palestinian ofc), but it was made as a colony to control the middle east (and planned way before the ww2)

[Gota]

Whether or not Jews/Hebrews/Zionists or whatever have the right to a country or not, isn't something that belongs in the same argument as "is it a good idea to form a new country in an area that's already occupied?"

I mean, sure, have a country if there's merit to the idea (I am not educated to say whether there is or not), but it seems to be a poor choice of location.

Germany's atrocities during WW2 seem like the sort of thing for which you might take away part of their territory and give it to the victims. A Jewish state within Germany's borders makes perfect sense by comparison to forming a Jewish state in territory that's hostile to them.

Israel had had little to do with the holocaust(sure it was a catalyst but it was only the last phase of a long process of immigration cultivation construction and in general laying foundations for a country(even military conflict with the british).
When Israel was offered independence along side the Palestinians territories were devided by the majority population in all the regions.
The immigration to Israel started in the 19th century when it was still under autumn rule.
Why was it wrong for jews to immigrate to the place to which jews had historical reference as people?
People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?from the british?the Autumn empire?

jew are not a people seriously ... stop watching israel television, jew is just a religion and your country wasn't made for jew to come back to their "ancestors' living place" (the real jew descendants are the palestinian ofc), but it was made as a colony to control the middle east (and planned way before the ww2)

Are you trolling?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
Jews are an ethnic group and even have their own specific genes like many other groups that tracks back to the levant area,google it.

[Peet]

People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?from the british?the Autumn empire?

I think that view is mostly based not on the fact that land being bought, but on the fact that a nation has been formed on that territory that essentially treats its arab denizens - primarily the people who were there before the more recent influx - as second class citizens. Flozi's link is exemplary of this. The "theft" is the theft of equal treatment and rights.

Not that this concept is something that is particularly uncommon in the sense of common racism; I am sure a jury of all whites in the southern US is more likely to convict a black person than a caucasian.

[Forboding Angel]

@satirik (Related to the first page of this thread): lolhalocaust? Or have we conveniently forgotten that little unsavory bit of history?

Also, Jews are their own nation and have been, categorically, for thousands of years.

Edit: It's worth pointing out, that many people don't like Jews because of their inflected superiority complex. I've even witnessed it here in the states. It's rather annoying, but I wouldn't accuse all Jews of acting that way.

[Caydr]

The idea that Jews have "historic reference" to the area now referred to as Israel is a pretty weak justification. I don't know my ancient history with too much time granularity, but IIRC it was a long, long time ago that Jews were the dominant native resident.

Just because people start to move to an area doesn't mean that it's automatically a good thing for them to be there. To be perfectly honest I'd be scared to live in Israel. You guys have balls, no doubt about it, but beyond a certain point you have to ask if there's a good reason for you to be putting yourself and your family at risk or if you're just doing it to be stubborn.

Also, in regard to whether or not Palestinians are to blame for the situation - you make a good point about it being largely due to their lack of decent leadership that things have gotten so bad. A compromise would be best for everyone - Israel's not going to just go away. Even if their fantasies were granted and they got the opportunity to nuke you off the map, they would die with you due to fallout, radiation, and the ensuing international revenge party.

However, the problem is systemic. Palestinians aren't just going to become nice, educated, civilized people overnight. Their leaders rely on their ignorance to manipulate them, and their fear of Israel naturally leads them to elect people who pander to their fear. In other words, people who want to keep the situation as it is or even escalate it. And as you say, very likely if things stay as they are or get worse, your own countrymen will also elect people who pander to your fear of Palestinians.

To say that Palestinians actually have ANY blame is like blaming an animal that dies from touching an electric fence. They don't have the benefit of widespread higher education that Israelis do. But you can't help them get out of this situation very easily either, since their leadership will resist any attempt to moderate the situation.

It's intractable. There's going to be lots and lots of blood and suffering. It's why I said earlier, I just don't know why you don't just pack up and leave, how is it worth it? Even if you HAVE an absolutely moral and legitimate right to the land, you're in a pissing contest with people who have no problem with dying just to spite you. If the roof is on fire, you get out. It doesn't matter who started the fire in the first place.

And seriously, are you saying that because Jewish people have certain genes that this should have any bearing on anything, ever? That's the definition of racism, albeit in your own favor.

[Forboding Angel]

There is one sole reason (that I'm aware of), and that is the temple mount.

I'd say if the temple mount were to be vaporized that all of a sudden, the middle east would have noting left to fight over.

[Gota]

People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?from the british?the Autumn empire?

I think that view is mostly based not on the fact that land being bought, but on the fact that a nation has been formed on that territory that essentially treats its arab denizens - primarily the people who were there before the more recent influx - as second class citizens. Flozi's link is exemplary of this. The "theft" is the theft of equal treatment and rights.

Not that this concept is something that is particularly uncommon in the sense of common racism; I am sure a US jury of all whites is more likely to convict a black person than a caucasian.

I really cant address this case since i do not know its particulars( i do know how the guardian likes to portray things though).
Arab citizens in Israel officially have full rights just like all groups.
There is no official policy of discrimination and unlike some,note,european countries we do not try and force Muslims to betray their own faith or restrict it in some ways(the veil issues is indeed controversial because in some cases women are pressured or out right forced to wear it against their true will).
There is of course discrimination that is unofficial and how wouldn't there be?Has this conflict not been going on for several decades?have people from both sides not dies?This is a very emotionally intense situation.
If your mother of brother were killed in a bus on their way to home and an arab with Israeli citizenship was assisting the terrorist how would you feel when an Israeli arab came to you for an interview?
There is a gigantic issue of trust and when there is no trust there cant be true equality.
There are efforts being made to incorporate arabs in the fabric of Israeli society better both by anti discrimination laws and giving all sorts of benefits and priorities when trying to be accepted to universities(this is not new) and so on but there is no chance of good equality or relations until the conflict is over.

[Caydr]

And one more thing: Seriously, is it worth fighting over ANYTHING in the middle east? It's a hot, dusty hellhole full of people who have been carefully manipulated to think that war is peace and blowing yourself up is a perfectly reasonable way to win an argument.

Look, I'll have to retroactively get this approved, but I can say this much safely: Come to Canada, pick a province besides Ontario, British Columbia, Quebec, or that one in the middle with oil that even I don't know or care about. Any one but those, it's yours, you can have it. Just let us keep a little strip down the middle for a highway, do what you want with the rest.

If your mother of brother were killed in a bus on their way to home and an arab with Israeli citizenship was assisting the terrorist how would you feel when an Israeli arab came to you for an interview?

What? No, just don't even make that argument please. I'm sure I have to be reading that wrong.

[Machete234]

At first I thought the ball comes back with tnt on it.

People immigrated and land was bought.There is no place to call it stealing or occupation.Stealing or occupying from whom?

But not all the land was bought they had to fight wars to move the borders where they are now.

[Peet]

If your mother of brother were killed in a bus on their way to home and an arab with Israeli citizenship was assisting the terrorist how would you feel when an Israeli arab came to you for an interview?

What? No, just don't even make that argument please. I'm sure I have to be reading that wrong.

I don't think he's trying to justify it (nor is it justifiable) but it's certainly how a lot of people would react - there are testaments to that figment of human nature worldwide.

[Gota]

The idea that Jews have "historic reference" to the area now referred to as Israel is a pretty weak justification. I don't know my ancient history with too much time granularity, but IIRC it was a long, long time ago that Jews were the dominant native resident.

Just because people start to move to an area doesn't mean that it's automatically a good thing for them to be there. To be perfectly honest I'd be scared to live in Israel. You guys have balls, no doubt about it, but beyond a certain point you have to ask if there's a good reason for you to be putting yourself and your family at risk or if you're just doing it to be stubborn.

Also, in regard to whether or not Palestinians are to blame for the situation - you make a good point about it being largely due to their lack of decent leadership that things have gotten so bad. A compromise would be best for everyone - Israel's not going to just go away. Even if their fantasies were granted and they got the opportunity to nuke you off the map, they would die with you due to fallout, radiation, and the ensuing international revenge party.

However, the problem is systemic. Palestinians aren't just going to become nice, educated, civilized people overnight. Their leaders rely on their ignorance to manipulate them, and their fear of Israel naturally leads them to elect people who pander to their fear. In other words, people who want to keep the situation as it is or even escalate it. And as you say, very likely if things stay as they are or get worse, your own countrymen will also elect people who pander to your fear of Palestinians.

To say that Palestinians actually have ANY blame is like blaming an animal that dies from touching an electric fence. They don't have the benefit of widespread higher education that Israelis do. But you can't help them get out of this situation very easily either, since their leadership will resist any attempt to moderate the situation.

It's intractable. There's going to be lots and lots of blood and suffering. It's why I said earlier, I just don't know why you don't just pack up and leave, how is it worth it? Even if you HAVE an absolutely moral and legitimate right to the land, you're in a pissing contest with people who have no problem with dying just to spite you. If the roof is on fire, you get out. It doesn't matter who started the fire in the first place.

And seriously, are you saying that because Jewish people have certain genes that this should have any bearing on anything, ever? That's the definition of racism, albeit in your own favor.

First of all my comment about genes was an answer to Satirik's doubt to the fact Jews are an ethnic group.
Second of all,should all people in conflict zones pack their bags and move to Europe or the US?im not sure how your own countrymen would respond to such attempts XD
People who live here usually have historical ties with family rooted here.
Many people have died and fought for Israel.
If my father fought and died in one of the many wars here fighting for the right over this country i shell now abandon all this and leave?
There are of course just regular explanations to why people dont leave.
The religious guys feel attached to jewish holy places that were not open to anyone when the arabs had them.
Secular people are tied to Heritage family friends work etc...
Also If i was living in the UK for example,I would be blasted this issue and would be forced to argue the Israeli/jewish case again and again and again(i know this from relatives living in the UK).
If i was to leave the more cosmopolitan europeans or the US aside there are still the muslim immigrants that are a small minorty but have a strong united voice.
Have you ever read some of the comments that muslims leave even in youtube?
These last issues are minor however and the stronger ones are the ones i pointed out first.
Many israelis do leave and some comeback and jews immigrate here from other countries...there is immigration and people leave just like in other countries.