New Map concept

New Map concept

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

New Map concept

Post by Saktoth »

Heres another map concept, integrating land-sea heavily.

Like the last ones, here is how to read this: Black is water. Darkest grey is shallow water that is crossable by ships (incl subs) and units. Where there are two adjacent colours 1 shade away from one another, vehicles and hovers can cross. Where there are colours 2 shades away from one another, only kbots/all-terrain/air can cross. Where there are colours anything more than 2 shades from one another only at/air can cross.

Image

Improvements/suggestions welcome. If anyone would like to make this map, please say so!
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Gota
Posts: 7151
Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55

Re: New Map concept

Post by Gota »

If you want to make this heightmap good add more detail.
Smoothen some places,make more color layers..If you dont youd need someone to make some serious effort to make the heghtmap look realistic.
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hunterw
Posts: 1838
Joined: 14 May 2006, 12:22

Re: New Map concept

Post by hunterw »

Interesting...

Meant for top right vs bottom left. It's sort of an inversion of tropical...where tropical has a figure-8 of water around land in the middle, this has a figure-8 of land around water in the middle.

I like the basic idea. My only criticism is with the metal layout.

First and foremost, you have mex spots on shallows. UW mex can't be built on that depth of water, so you have to make little pockets of deep water for them ala tempest. No biggie.

I like the 3-mex starting point layout, but when it comes to expansion, things get a bit hairy. I will describe the layout from the top right corner's team.

The leftmost player there is meant to expand to the left, and has 7 basically uncontested mex there for him to claim. These 7 mex are very far away from the enemy team. Only one is attackable by sea. They all have only have one land route to them from the south that is easily defensible due to shallows. The map will split top vs. bottom almost every game I'm willing to bet, with this leftmost player getting the lion's share of metal for his team.

The bottom-right player is meant to go ships/hovers due to the UW mex spot as well as the easily defensible cove. There are 7 mex in the north ocean, all of which are extremely spread out. Construction ships are extremely slow, so expansion to these mex is difficult, markedly because of early scout boat attacks.

The middle player I assume is a sea/land flex spot. This spot is probably best utilized by a land player expanding straight south. This player has it rough, however. The mex they expand to are all in the middle of the map on the front lines. Almost all are attackable by sea. Furthermore, the land player they will be fighting on their front has the lion's share of easily defensible mex for the other team. I expect the land player expanding to these mex to be run over consistently.

The top-right player is assumed air-start with no mex to expand to, but this works out just fine due to airdrop or mm economy on BA.

I see lots of airdrops being quite effective in this map, specifically to the exact middle of the map as well as to the enemy's difficult-to-contest corner mex. In games without much airdropping, however, I think we'll see a sort of counter-clockwise progression of both teams pushing in to each other on the land.


Sea players will be a big factor and it'll be interesting to see their coordination with the land players. Also, if a sea player dominates, they will probably do quite a number to the enemy team. They can attack two of the four original bases. The two bases they can't attack easily are the air spot (too far away) and that left player (high elevation).

In conclusion, pick that left spot 8)
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Neddie
Community Lead
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: New Map concept

Post by Neddie »

Hunter, I assume you're speaking in terms of BA while Sak is designing for the demands of CA. That said, the only point in your input I can contest in good will is that of the Con Ship speed - that is a script interpretation error, the ships are actually quite fast, they just move at half speed when given a build order.
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hunterw
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Joined: 14 May 2006, 12:22

Re: New Map concept

Post by hunterw »

I'm certain Sak is designing for CA - however, is CA really that fundamentally different in the basic things I've described?

I only really gave one piece of feedback specific for BA and marked it as such. If anything it seems CA's economy is more mex dependent, and therefore more metal layout dependent, but I'm not very knowledgable about CA so my specific advice for it is not very good :|
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Neddie
Community Lead
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Re: New Map concept

Post by Neddie »

I wasn't contesting anything but the ship note, and otherwise my statement was merely for clarification. In the rest I agree with you, but I feel you forgot something that I was told many times when I proposed designs... :wink:

Learn to do it yourself.

Nobody can create your vision to your specifications but you. Even if somebody does take pity and make it Sak, which hell, I might; the execution will waver from your plans, and you will probably be disappointed.

This concept seems fairly solid, it reminds me of the best of Tempest and a map I didn't finish combined. I might note, however, that to make it truly brilliant you might have a custom skybox and maybe some irreclaimable features... ice floes, organics, etc.
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hunterw
Posts: 1838
Joined: 14 May 2006, 12:22

Re: New Map concept

Post by hunterw »

neddiedrow wrote: Learn to do it yourself.

Nobody can create your vision to your specifications but you. Even if somebody does take pity and make it Sak, which hell, I might; the execution will waver from your plans, and you will probably be disappointed.
At the end of the day, whoever makes the map is the map's author. They they have the final say on balance. Despite this, speculation and discussion of balance is still extremely valuable. Although balance is very subjective, there is much value in hearing everyone's opinions. The amount of weight those opinions carry for the mapmaker is totally up to them.

I don't think Sak expects someone to read his mind. His map idea is highly open to interpretation. I'm sure if he really wanted the map to be exactly what he wants he would learn to map!

Anyway, the real discussion of balance can begin after a map's been played a couple hundred times, but hardly anyone ever makes beta versions of maps for spring.
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: New Map concept

Post by Saktoth »

What neddie says about conships is correct, im surprised BA hasnt fixed this yet its just an issue of low acceleration and build orders activating the amph slowdown for some reason.

Scout boats are no threat to conships, a conship can reclaim a scout boat before it does any serious damage.

While the player pushing into the middle of the map has a more difficult time defending, he also has access to the middle island which gives him an extra 6 potential mexes. Thats almost double the player in the hilly side spots. Yes, his spot has a big river down the middle, but for him this is an advantage. Its right out the front of the sea players bay area. He is far more likely to get support from the ally sea player than he is to get aggression from the enemy sea player.
Nobody can create your vision to your specifications but you. Even if somebody does take pity and make it Sak, which hell, I might; the execution will waver from your plans, and you will probably be disappointed.
Its not 'taking pity on me' it is 'collaborating on design and implimentation'. >:(

Scorpio was almost perfectly executed to my specifications. The only error being the islands arent hover-accessible in CA (CA's hovers have lower slope tolerance than BA). Any other problems with scorpio were in my design, not in the interpretation. If someone wants to take the time to make this, their call. I just had an idea and wanted to put it down somewhere. Sometimes an idea sticks in your head and you need to get it out.

I know how to make height maps and textures, i textured Coasts, Deadlands, Tartarus and i made Calayo myself. I dont know how to compile though, havent taken the time to learn that. Busy with other things.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: New Map concept

Post by Forboding Angel »

Gota wrote:If you want to make this heightmap good add more detail.
Smoothen some places,make more color layers..If you dont youd need someone to make some serious effort to make the heghtmap look realistic.
The way he did it is preferred, so you can run it through a generator and get realistic looking terrain.
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